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So Andrew,
Satan is bound even now? But I thought satan 'was on the prowl NOW, like a
roaring lion (1 Peter 5:7)!!
Satan was bound during the Crusades? Hitler was free from Satan's influence?
Usama too?
No matter. Scripture shows satan is on the prowl NOW.....
I won't even get into the 1,000 years not meaning 1,000 years argument with
you...
Revelation may not be in chonilogical order (debatable BTW), but I'm taking
my information from once verse that does indeed show chronilogical order:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet
are, (PAST TENSE) and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Notice the past tense here-"WHERE THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ARE"...This
shows that satan does indeed get thrown into the lake AFTER the other two.......
Signed,
Raphael (11/28/01)
________________________________________________
The AC is Satan .
The Dragon is Satan.
The Beast of Chap 13 is the Pagan Political State
The False Prophet is the False Church
The 144,000 are the elect
The mark of the beast is the opposite of the seal of the Holy Spirit
Babylon is representative of all reprobates
The “rapture” is on the final day of world history
The Millennium is the church age
Revelation is mot chronological
The seven churches are- seven actual churches that shared many of the same
struggles as saints of all epochs
The first resurrection is when God calls his elect
The second is on Judgment day
Christ shall return ONCE more
There is one judgment
Israel is the Church
The Church is Israel
God’s judgment begins in the church
God’s judgment is swift and final
Satan is bound from deceiving the elect
Christ is ruling now
Signed,
Andrew (11/28/01)
_______________________________________________
I am with Raphael big time on this
one.....How can you explain that one Andrew..how can you say that satan is
bound today and has been since the cross?
You are saying that Satan is totally locked away right now and has nothing
to do with anything on earth right now?
That makes no sense?
See Rand..he is not my King...LOL!!
Signed,
Marlane (11/28/01)
________________________________________________
Marlane,
Satan was bound spiritually at the cross, from preventing God's plan for His
elect. Jesus said he would bind the strongman (satan), and plunder his house.
That is happening now.
Signed,
Warrior728 (11/28/01)
________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Kiss my you know EZ BOARD
Raphael Says Quote, “Satan is bound
even now? But I thought satan 'was on the prowl NOW, like a roaring lion (1
Peter 5:7)!! “
True enough. What is it he is bound from? Did I say it was mischief making?
Did I say it was persecuting the saints? I said it was deceiving the elect.
Hey it was not ME who said Satan is and must be bound, it was Christ:
Matthew 12:29 "How can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil
his goods, except he first Bind the strong man and then he will spoil his
house."
Mark 3:26 "And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot
stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil
his goods, except He FIRST Bind the strong man; and then He will spoil his
House."
Luke 11:20-23 "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt
the Kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace,
his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and
overcome him, He TAKETH from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."
It is the binding of Satan that allows:
Matthew 28:18-19 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power
is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost:"
Quote “Scripture shows satan is on the prowl NOW..... “
Yes he is. No one would deny THAT. He is out there trying to rob us of our
relationship. However, he cannot deceive the elect and he cannot thwart the
building of God’s temple. THAT is what it means to bind Satan.
Quote “I won't even get into the 1,000 years not meaning 1,000 years argument
with you... “
Ok Don’t. But let me say this. Revelation chapter 20 is not speaking of literal
objects or times, it is speaking in symbolic terms of very literal happenings
and time. There is a difference! It is using symbolic words which man will
recognize as representations of what is happening. i.e., the chain is not
a literal chain, it represents or signifies restraint, the key is not a literal
key, it represents or signifies authority and ability, etc. All we have to
do is look at the rest of the chapter to clearly see this. This Messenger
didn't come down from heaven with a literal key. This Messenger didn't come
with a literal great Chain. Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain nor
locked up with a literal lock. Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained
spiritually by God Himself. Rather than literal, this Language is representative
Spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates
He has the power and authority to keep bound, or to unlock and set loose.
So if we are not talking about strictly literal things here, what would make
anyone think that the 1000 years must be a literal number of years anymore
than the chain to hold Satan that 1000 years was a literal chain? The answer
is nothing! Nothing except Church tradition or teachings
Quote “Revelation may not be in chronological order (debatable BTW), but I'm
taking my information from once verse that does indeed show chronological
order: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, (PAST TENSE) and shall
be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Notice the past tense here-"WHERE
THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ARE"...This shows that satan does indeed
get thrown into the lake AFTER the other two.......
Please. If you and I jump in the lake on the same day and I jump in first
it is said that when you jump in you will be in the lake where I already was.
Past tense means that they were thrown in in a particular order and the order
is Beast, Prophet and then Satan. It does not indicate that there is 1000
years in between. Where does it indicate that? Nowhere unless you take Revelation
chronologically, which is not logical at all..
Revelation 19:17and 20:9 are the same day. Unless you believe that God has
two Armageddon’s.
Signed,
Andrew (11/28/01)
___________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Satan Free?
Andrew,
If the Revelation scriptures do not mean what they say in regards to timing
and the verses we've discussed, then we have no choice but to disregard them
and the implied timing. Much of scripture then becomes a matter of ones own
interpretation, with your interpretation no more valid then mine!
Thank God He has not left this issues up to us to 'guess' about.
If satan is indeed bound as you believe, you are basing the binding on Rev.
20:2 where it says "satan was bound for 1,000 years."
-BUT, you can't stop reading there! Read the next line-
"-and threw him into the abyss and
shut it and sealed it over him so he should not decieve the nations ....until
the 1,000 years are up"!
This not sound like the 'bound, but free' theory you've supposed.
Not only that, but Paul himself tells us satan is free to thrawt Pauls attempt
in travel (1 Thes. 2:1 ,
free for Paul to turn over Hymie and Alexander ( 1 Tim. 1:20), free to be
prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:2), along with being the accuser of
the saints and prowling like the lion as stated in Peter.
Satan is also free to set snares for the saints (2 Tim 2:26). I believe you
stated he wasn't allowed to do this.
Comments??
Signed,
Raphael (11/28/01)
___________________________________________________
Raphael:
Let me go through a couple of things with you.
Once again you revert to the incorrect presupposition that to be bound means
to be completely closed of. This is a human interpretation. Jesus said that
Satan was bound so if Jesus said he was bound, he is bound. Are you now going
to go to Jesus and say “Well Paul was frustrated by Satan and Satan in on
the prowl so therefore Jesus you are wrong? Of course not! What you should
do at this point is redefine what it means to be bound. As I stated earlier,
it does not mean, as you suggest, that one is completely shut out. What it
means is that a particular activity (that of thwarting the building of the
church) is impossible. It is impossible because of the cross.
At the end of the 1000 years, when the fullness of the Gentiles are brought
into true Israel, Satan will be allowed to run free for a short time. Our
sovereign Lord will allow this as a judgment against the apostate church.
Scripture reads that judgment begins in the church. Then with the true church
and Christ victorious, he will be thrown into the lake of fire on the final
judgment day.
Is Satan on the prowl- of course? Is Satan evil and deceptive- absolutely?
Is Satan trying to rob us all of our relationship with God- yes he is. These
are the “snares” you are so desperately trying to define.
But can Satan undue the Kingdom- absolutely
not!!
In addition to “bound”, you also are assigning an arbitrary definition to
“chains”, “seal” and “bottomless pit”. I go back to earlier statements that
you must let scripture interpret these for you.
Chains: the Biblical symbolic definition means something that is preventing
one from doing something, confining.
Job 36:8 Psalm 2:3 Psalm 107:14 Psalm 116:16 Proverbs 1:9 Ecclesiastes 7:26
Isaiah 3:20 Isaiah 28:22 Isaiah 40:19 Isaiah 45:14 Isaiah 52:2 Isaiah 58:6
Jeremiah 40:1 Jeremiah 40:4 Lamentations 3:7 Ezekiel 7:23 Etc.
Chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate
a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us.
Seal: A security and guarantee. In this case it is God’s security and God’s
guarantee.
Song of Solomon 8:6 Isaiah 8: Jeremiah 32:10 John 6:27 Romans 4:11 1 Corinthians
9:2 2 Corinthians 1:22 Ephesians 1:13 Ephesians 4:30 etc.
The seal over Satan signifies that it is God’s sovereignty at work, that God
sealed him and God is the one who will unseal him.
A Pit: is a place of captivity. This is
not a physical place; it is figurative of his situation. Likewise in:
Psalm 30:9 Psalm 35:7 Psalm 40:2 Psalm 55:23 Psalm 57:6 Proverbs 26:27 Proverbs
28:10 Ecclesiastes 10:8 Isaiah 24:17 Isaiah 24:18 Isaiah 24:22 Jeremiah 48:43
Ezekiel 19:8
Also the statement “THAT HE SHOULD DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, until the
1000 years are up”. Is exactly what is happening and has been happening since
the resurrection.
Christ (The Messenger) came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into
a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive
the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation
and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we
are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in
bondage.
God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be
loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations
have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads (minds).
You also have a faulty interpretation of what “deceive” means here. You think
it means that Satan tricks people into sinning. It cannot. Even if it did,
now your eschatology is all-fake. It would be fake because your so-called
mortals who inherit the fictional millennial kingdom will sin (as all mortals
do).
So what it really means in this context is that Satan tricks people into losing
their place in the Kingdom. He clearly will try to do it and clearly will
fail:
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs
and miracles to deceive the elect--if that
were possible,.
What did Jesus say? He said that Satan
will attempt to deceive the elect and that he cannot do so.
I guess there are my principle comments.
Tim and War, I enjoyed reading your posts very much.
Signed,
Andrew (11/29/01)
_______________________________________________
SUBJECT: Andrew's Precious Prognostications
"Beloved, believe not every
spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets
are gone out into the world."
Andrew, our reigning prophet-of-the-month at the Lion of Judah, is once again
WUI ---- Writing Under the Influence. This is the end result of years imbibing
Jesuit doublespeak which pours forth like a flood from the Dragon's mouth,
(Rev. 12:15).
Let us take Paul's admonishment to heart by testing one of this prophet's
precious pearls:
"The Revelation is not chronological."
Prophet Andrew would have the Christians on this board believe the Holy Spirit
is the Spirit of Confusion, reverting to chaos, disorder and havoc in writing
the last book of God's Word to us.
Though the Holy Spirit deliberately introduces His Word with the origins of
His Creation, "In the beginning……", carrying us through a chronological
history of His chosen people in the Old Testament, continuing His orderly
chronology with the birth, ministry and death and resurrection of Jesus, followed
by the chronological history of the Apostles after the resurrection, Andrew
the Prophet declares the Spirit has now reversed Himself.
If you people believe that unadulterated twaddle, shame on you.
Here is what one witness, Martin Luther, has to say about the matter:
"Since [the Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are
to happen in the future [i.e., future from the days of the Apostle John],
and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church, we consider that
the first and surest step toward finding its interpretation is to take from
history the events and disasters that have come upon the Church before now
and hold them up alongside of these pictures [i.e., the visions given John]
and so compare them with the words [i.e., the text]. If, then, the two were
to fit and agree with each other, we could build on that, as a sure, or at
least unobjectionable interpretation." (Preface to the Revelation of
Saint John, 1545; Source: Works of Martin Luther, Philadelphia Edition,1932
, Volume 6, p. 479,).
Martin Luther interpreted the Revelation as the chronological history of the
Church foretold until the consummation of the age. ALL the Protestant Reformers
held this view.
Andrew opposes them.
Lesson # 1 to Laura, re: discerning the wheat from the tares. To oppose the
united testimony of the Body of theologians to whom you claim to have allegiance,
is to (a) make a false profession; and (b) oppose the Head of that Body, the
Lord Jesus Christ. To do so is to manifest the spirit of a tare, a son of
disobedience.
"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth
me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
Andrew heareth not and loveth not the prophetic teachings of the Reformers,
the anointed Body of Christ.
……To continue…..Thus sayeth Andrew:
"Satan is bound from deceiving the elect."
I respond: Revelation 20:3, the verse which has seen much controversy on this
message board, does not speak to the issue of deceiving the elect. It speaks
to the deceiving of the NATIONS, i.e., the world of earth dwellers/unbelievers.
The Elect are those who have been effectually CALLED OUT ('ekklesia') and
CHOSEN OUT('eklektos') of the world/nations.
Revelation 12 depicts the casting down of Satan into the earth - not the pit
- that he might unleash his great wrath upon the world. This occurs AFTER
the resurrection of Christ, the man child. Satan is not bound at the resurrection.
A woe is declared upon the earth dwellers because it is they who will be his
pawns to capture and destroy at will. The remnant church of Christ is seen
undergoing extreme persecution and death at his hands, though he has not the
power to take one Elect soul and cast it into Hell. The Church does not escape
the Great Tribulation which is directed at them by Satan. The nations have
been and are now being deceived; ergo Satan is not bound in the bottomless
pit.
In Revelation 13, Satan's only begotten son, the Beast Antichrist, is revealed.
He is the final enemy, the arch-enemy of the true Church. Satan is directing
the Beast's every move, giving him power to work lying signs and wonders,
(II Thess. 2:9), enthroning him in the Roman Vatican, (Rev. 13:2), in what
was once the seat of the ancient Roman Empire, (Rev. 17: nine & eighteen),
but which is now the seat of the Holy Roman Empire of the Catholic Church.
Satan is not bound, isolated, captive in some bottomless pit feeling sorry
for himself. Nor has he set traps and snares 2,000 years ago which infallibly
work today, though he is not here to spring them. (To do so would be to attribute
prescience, omniscience and omnipotence to him.) Nor has he given a subordinate
angel command over his kingdom. Satan's ego will not allow it. He is the King
of Pride who will not share his glory with another. Nor has the Lord sidelined
Satan, who would be like the Most High God, taking him out of the final fierce
battles as we near the culmination of the age. The Lord's purposes in creating
man, as well as angels, will not allow it. The Lord will get the final victory,
despite Satan's infinite devices, despite the small number of His Elect, and
despite the seemingly overwhelming odds.
Matthew 24:24 is the Scripture which speaks to the impossibility of the Elect
being deceived, not Revelation 20:3. In context, Christ promises the Elect
will not be ultimately deceived by the succession of Antichrists and false
prophets who claim Apostolic descent, the unique anointing of God, all of
whom are dressed in sheep's clothing. Their deception will be so powerful
that Christ and His Apostles issue numerous warnings to the Elect for the
express purpose that they gain discernment, heed the signs of the times, and
keep watch. The Elect must do their homework, study and stay in fervent prayer.
The Church Age is not designed as the cakewalk Andrew, Pentecostals and Preterists
believe it to be. In fact, it is the time of the Great Tribulation, the likes
of which God's people have never known, (Matt. 24:21). Christians are not
free from harm, deception or sin. The battle has been raging between Satan
and his forces against the Lord and His forces for centuries, though few care
to believe it.
At this moment Andrew is numbered among the deceived and deluded, believing
the Adversary to be bound, believing Satan to be the Antichrist, ergo: believing
the Antichrist bound.
I ask, If Satan and the Antichrist are bound, who is the present enemy, Jack
Van Impe?
……….To continue……Thus sayeth Andrew:
"The first resurrection is when God calls his elect."
I respond: It is true the Elect are spiritually resurrected by the call of
Christ, of which Lazarus and baptism is a type. But that is not the context
of Revelation 20:4, which Andrew implies.
Scripture is clear as crystal that those who rise in the first resurrection
are those who had already gotten the victory over the Beast, his image and
mark. It is impossible for the unsaved to identify the Beast as such, let
alone gain the victory over him and his superior, Satan. Those who rise in
this resurrection are those Christians who had overcome the Evil One by the
blood of the Lamb, by the word of the their testimony, loving not their lives
unto the death. Those who overcome are the called, chosen and faithful, (Rev.
17:14) - not the deaf, dumb, blind and dead.
Lesson # 2 to Laura, re: discerning the wheat from the tares. The wheat are
those who make sense of Scripture by the gracious illumination of the Holy
Spirit. They willingly and gladly take instruction from other members in the
Body, past and present, who have likewise received illumination. The tares,
on the other hand, make nonsense of that which is written for our edification,
education, protection and comfort. They also refuse instruction.
Andrew would have the unsaved successfully war with Satan and his Antichrist,
who are one and the same, bound and yet not bound, after which time Christ
calls them into the Church.
Sounds like a new Gospel to me.
With Prophet Andrew up is down, right is left, forward is backward and Jesuitism
is truth.
Wake up, people. Please?
Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications
(11/29/01)
________________________________________________
Rand,
Your post leaves me totally confused. I thought you were Amillenial?
I think your obsession with the RCC is clouding your judgment on discerning
Scriptures and having intelligient discussion. And believe me, I am very anti
RCC, and even believe it is probably the Whore of Revelation. Or at least
is a representation of it. But all this talk about Jesuits, and all, is just
too much.
If you are an amillenialist, your views on the binding of satan, don't jive
with your amillenialism beliefs, Rand. Please clarify.
Signed,
Warrior728 (11/29/01)
________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Foul Ball
So Rand, is your goal is to make
Andrew look bad? FYI, that is what at least one reader of your posts is led
to believe, based on the dozen or so ad hominem statements in your latest
post.
Signed,
TimothyJRoy (11/29/01)
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