. HOME . <- PREVIOUS

SUBJECT: You are such a joker, Rand

I was just reading Rand’s last post where he quotes Luther.

"Since [the Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future [i.e., future from the days of the Apostle John], and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church, we consider that the first and surest step toward finding its interpretation is to take from history the events and disasters that have come upon the Church before now and hold them up alongside of these pictures [i.e., the visions given John] and so compare them with the words [i.e., the text]. If, then, the two were to fit and agree with each other, we could build on that, as a sure, or at least unobjectionable interpretation." (Preface to the Revelation of Saint John, 1545; Source: Works of Martin Luther, Philadelphia Edition,1932 , Volume 6, p. 479,).

Rand interprets this to mean

“Martin Luther interpreted the Revelation as the chronological history of the Church foretold until the consummation of the age. ALL the Protestant Reformers held this view.”

How do you figure THAT Rand? Or did you just think that no one would bother to read it?

In this excerpt, Luther makes several points:

1. Revelation is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future (future from the days of the Apostle John)

2. In order to interpret one should take from history the events and disasters that have come upon the Church before now and hold them up alongside of the visions given John

3. If the two fit and agree with each other, build on that, as a sure, or at least unobjectionable interpretation.

This does not even address the issue of whether or not the events in Revelation are presented as chronological or not. Let me help you out. It addresses the issue of whether or not the events are historical or at some point in the far future.

You are such a joker Rand! Maybe you should take passages like this and break them don into their components. It makes it easier to understand what the author is trying to say. That’s what I do. Of course I have ADD so I have to. Super geniuses probably do not have such a need.


PS that last bit was a friendly jibe.

Signed,

Andrew (11/30/01)

_____________________________________________________

Dear Leonists:

Having read the last 3 pages of posts, it is self-evident that confusion still reigns. I speak both literally and figuratively.

My posts directed to rebuking the several errors of beloved Andrew and his adherents are not meant to be fuzzy wuzzy love notes. Nor are they intended to be of the hearty congratulatory backslapping ilk which is running rampant among the 'good ole boy Christians' of this message board.

What I discern is pride run amok. Each of you would, by virtue of your professed confession of Christ, attain deep understanding of the prophetic mysteries by conferring amongst yourselves, seeing if those things be so in God's Word......according to your private interpretations. In your pitifully narrow mindset, there is no room for considering the voluminous works of those past Christians who fought the good fight in proclaiming the true Gospel of justification by grace through faith in the righteousness of Christ alone. To refer to the works of these unique Protestant masters would require more study than the 30 minutes it takes to digest the messages on this message board………and who has the time?

Christ's teaching regarding interpretation of the mysteries differs considerably from your method. Not all have been given the gift of understanding mysteries, (Matt. 13:11; Matt. 11:25). Not all Christians receive the same gifts of the Spirit, (1 Corinthians 12). Therefore, it behooves the mature, faithful Christian to recognize his or her limitations and seek counsel from those to whom it HAS been given.

As Christ was the interpreter of the parable mysteries, so it is He who is the interpreter of the mysteries of the Revelation.

Lesson # 1: What appears to be literal may be figurative, signifying something greater.

Case in point: The 7 stars are really the 7 angels of the seven churches. Stars shine as do angels, (Daniel 12:3). The wise shine very brightly. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, (1 Cor. 11:14). Satan, then, would deceive through false wisdom which the deceived view as brilliant. Preterism and Futurism are modern examples of such false wisdom embraced by the deceived.

Furthermore, the 7 angels cannot be literal angelic beings because angelic beings, who behold the face of God, deliver messages from God to men. The Hebrew word for 'angel' connotes 'messenger of God.' That same meaning is retained in the Greek. The angel in Revelation who taught John was one such example. Angelic beings have no need to be taught of men. Nor do they deliver messages from men to men. Therefore, the 7 angels were humans.

Evangelists are human messengers sent by God to proclaim the Good News/Gospel. Prophets are human messengers sent by God to warn, exhort and rebuke those who have strayed from God's ways and teachings. Pastors and teachers are human messengers sent by God to lead and feed the flock of God.

Therefore, in context with Christ's admonitions, the 7 angels of the 7 churches were those in leadership whose office it was to warn, exhort and rebuke.

Their warnings, exhortations and rebukes were not heeded. The 7 churches were removed from the face of the earth.

2nd case in point: The 7 candlesticks symbolize 7 churches. As long as Christ is in the midst, a professing church is truly recognized by God as His. Today Christ is no longer in the midst of these 7 churches, having weighed them, finding them wanting.

Lesson # 2: Old Testament rites and artifacts need be interpreted in New Testament terminology. Therefore, the Temple of God does not signify the literal Temple of Jerusalem, but instead refers to the visible, universal professing New Testament Church.

Lesson # 3: Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He still issues warnings, exhortations and rebukes to churches through the centuries.

Lesson # 4: Those through whom Christ issues his admonitions are speaking the truth.

Lesson # 5: As Christians we had best listen and obey those admonitions or find ourselves to be false Christians devoid of Christ.

With these elementary truths in mind, it behooves the sincere, open-minded Christian pupil to ask a few pertinent questions.

(1) Who were the angel-prophets of God in the past?
(2) What was their message?

Having thoroughly done my homework, I can tell you this: God's prophets have spoken, their words are readily available to those who seek them out, and they do not lie.

Oh, yes, one more thing. They do not agree with your beloved prophet. Rather, they condemn him.

Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications

12/4/01

_______________________________________________

SUBJECT: Hope you did not lose too much sleep

David,

Did you hear that beaux? We are a good old boys network. That is so hilarious because it is true. But I would rather have a strong backed young dude like yourself and a hard working, diligent woman such as Nina in my network any day over some pansy that thinks that maintaining an internet site is a job. I know you would be watching my back bro.

There are all too many people like Rand, Bear and Michael Corthell out there. I propose we take all of them and out them in a big tower full of powerful internet computers, video games and an unlimited supply of Ho Ho cakes and those little juice boxes. That way they can live out their lives doing ha they love the most: pouring out their bitterness and derision all day via electronic posts that no one ever reads. They can all be part of a large area network, make their posts, and criticize one another and everything else until they are blue in the face.

Rand I know that it was important to you that I respond to you last night but the truth is that when I got home last night I really wanted to do something with my children. So I took them to Chucky Cheeses. It is a place where fathers take their children so that they all can have a little fun together. They have little amusements and rides and things. Perhaps you have heard of the place. Anyhow, after we got home I helped them get ready for bed and then spent the remainder of the evening with my beautiful wife.

I hope you did not lose too much sleep waiting for me to respond.
Signed,

Andrew (12/5/01)

_______________________________________________________

Andrew,

Jesus died for Rand, Bear and Mike. I hope your praying for them. (No response is necessary, just consider the verse's below.)

Matthew 6:14,15 FOR IF YE FORGIVE MEN THEIR TRESPASSES, YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER WILL ALSO FORGIVE YOU: BUT IF YOU FORGIVE NOT MEN THEIR TRESPASSES, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES.

Signed,

Butch

_______________________________________________________

SUBJECT: GOB Network

Really Butch (BTW I have a brother with the same name), I do not hold anything against either of them and none of them have trespassed against me so there is nothing to forgive. I just think they are silly for having these obsessions with the internet.

I could not imagine what they must be giving up as far as family to peruse these things. That kind of makes me sad because I do value my time with mine so much. I just could not imagine spending hours and hours of what should family time on this.

I can barely leave the room without them calling out “Daddy Daddy”. It would break my heart to have to say “Leave me alone kids, I am doing all my internet stuff right now. Maybe tomorrow.”

But you are right. Rather than poke fun it would be better to pray.
Thanks
BTW if you were in the GOB network that would not be a bad thing.

Signed,

Andrew (12/5/01)

___________________________________________

In all fairness to Rand, Andrew - you have no idea if he even has kids or a wife or whatever; and he hasn't even posted on here that much. We have no clue how much time he devotes to it - unless you have information I don't have.

Having said that though...Rand - you weren't very nice. Do you not believe that you can have all the wisdom and knowledge in the world but if you have not love - it is worth nothing?

Signed,

Laura (12/5/01)

___________________________________________

Rand,

Think it is time that you read that bible yourself, put the others books aside. Read the part where it tells you how to you should treat others. Jesus gave us great examples...and so does Paul. In fact, the whole bible does... I have to be honest with you, you have some good points in your posts, but now I have no desire to even read your posts because I see so much pride in you that I can't respect to much of what you have to say.

You may very well be a nice guy and we have just not seen that side of you....but please know that showing kindness and love is NOT a sign of weakness....but one of knowing Jesus...

Did you mention what you feel your gift is? I would like to know what you feel it is if you don't mind.

NOW..back to Andrew....and yes..Butch is right..we need to pray...

Signed,

Marlane (12/5/01)
___________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Andrew's Chronic SID

Dear Judeans:

Your beloved Prophet Andrew has chosen to respond to the one paragraph quote of Martin Luther's to which I added the comment:

“Martin Luther interpreted the Revelation as the chronological history of the Church foretold until the consummation of the age. ALL the Protestant Reformers held this view.”

In his reply, Andrew of Georgia admits to having Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), otherwise known as Minimal Brain Dysfunction.

I wish it were that simple.

Below find excerpts of Preterist Andrew's reply, the purpose of which was to refute my assertion that Luther believed and taught the Revelation as the chronological history of the Christian Church:

"How do you figure THAT Rand? Or did you just think that no one would bother to read it?…….. You are such a joker Rand! Maybe you should take passages like this and break them don into their components. It makes it easier to understand what the author is trying to say. That’s what I do. Of course I have ADD so I have to. Super geniuses probably do not have such a need."

In this post I will prove that the true source of Andrew's disorder is not lack of Attention, but lack of knowledge……..otherwise known as SID, 'Supreme Ignorance Disorder.'…………recognized universally by God-fearing Christians as 'unbelief.'

My first authority and witness is Dr. Richard Bauckham, former Fellow of St. John's, Cambridge. In his masterpiece, 'Tudor Apocalypse,' (Oxford: Appleford Publishing, 197
 , Bauckham explains the importance of Church history in fulfilling biblical prophecy as taught by the Protestant Reformers:

"It was in considering the Antichristian nature of the papacy that Luther came to regard history and biblical prophecy as fulfilling complementary roles, each illuminating the other, as he explained in his preface to the 1536 edition of [English Protestant] Robert Barnes' work ['Lives of the Popes']:

'Though I was not at first historically well informed, I attacked the papacy on the basis of Holy Scripture. Now I rejoice heartily to see that others have attacked it from another source, that is, from history. I feel I have triumphed in my point of view as I note how clearly history agrees with Scripture. What I have learned and taught from Paul and Daniel, namely, that the Pope is Antichrist, that history proclaims, pointing to and indicating the very man himself.' (pp. 68-69).

Bauckham continues, "Luther's evaluation of the Apocalypse, notoriously hesitant in his first preface to the book, changed as he came to interpret it as a prophecy of the course of church history, and in his second preface, 1530, he stated essentially the exegetical principle from which English commentators from John Bale onwards were to work." (Ibid.)

Dr. Bauckham then proceeds to prove his point by quoting the exact passage from Luther that is in dispute with the Prophet Andrew. I leave it to the private judgment of the Judean readership to assess who is telling the truth and who is the prevaricator.

Bauckham then brings 16th-century English Protestant John Bale forward as an early Reformer who taught, "the Apocalypse set out the divine plan for the history of the church, antiquarian study showed the fulfillment of that plan. The understanding of the prophecies was therefore greatly facilitated by a knowledge of history." (Ibid.)

Furthermore, Bauckham states, "Conversely history was not self-interpreting. Only in the light of the prophetic revelation in scripture could the meaning of history be seen and the way opened for writing church history in the same terms in which the authors of Old Testament chronicles had written the history of Israel: in terms of the purpose of God and the age-long conflict of the two churches [the true and false]. The importance of this aspect of Bale's work ['The Image of Both Churches,' A. D. 1543] can scarcely be exaggerated. He was not the first to treat the Apocalypse as a prophecy of the whole course of church history…….Its influence was to be greatest on John Foxe, whose life's work could be seen dedicated to this program." (p. 70).

The Judean readership may not be aware that John Foxe, author of 'Acts & Monuments' did not write a one-volume work which is sold at your local user-friendly Bible bookstore. Foxe wrote 8-volumes, each thousands of pages of documented church history, including martyrologies, proving the Apocalypse to be the history of the true and false churches written beforehand. By comparing history to prophecy the identity of the false church and Antichrist is discerned. Simply put, the false church is that which murders the innocent saints. Her head is the Antichrist. This fundamental truth I detail in my thesis, 'Forensic Science & the Antichrist,' which link is on my Home Page.

For my second authority and witness, I offer Dr. John Headley, formerly of the Yale Divinity School. His scholarly book, 'Luther's View of Church History,' (Yale University Press, 1963), required expert knowledge of the writings and thoughts of Martin Luther - no small task given one lifetime of study.

Dr. Headley explains, "Luther sought the aid of histories for more than simple cultivation of a religious attitude. Specifically, he found support there for his attack on the Papacy…..Luther urged a historical investigation of the papal tyranny so that faithful and well-preserved histories might warn the pious of subsequent generations. History came to assume an admonitory function in Luther's eyes, and it was not long before he recognized the need to compose and record his own account of previous corruptions and present reforms….Almost twenty years after the Leipzig debates, Luther could reflect that not being sufficiently versed in histories, he had assaulted the Papacy a priori - from Scripture. Now aware of the agreement between histories and Scripture he took pleasure in attacking the Papacy a posteriori - from histories. He rejoiced that histories supported in specific and individual cases what he had previously learned and taught from Paul and Daniel as to the Papacy's being the Adversary of God." (p. 51).

Headley continues, "This auxiliary role of history extended to exegesis, and in the years following the disputation at Leipzig, Luther appealed to the authority of history in order to clarify the significance of a scriptural text. He often allowed extrabiblical history to provide the minor premise of a syllogistic argument. Although he preferred to argue from history rather than from the fathers, he rarely permitted the recorded past to determine the meaning of a text. Only because the Revelation of St. John was an otherwise inexplicable and barren prophecy - [NOTE TO THE READERS: as it is also inexplicable and barren to the Prophet Andrew in our day] - did Luther later indulge in a cautious and provisional attempt to establish the text's meaning by comparing its predictions with the subsequent events of history." [NOTE TO THE READERS: 'subsequent' = "following in time."]

"With the growth of Luther's interest in history during his later years went an increasing appreciation of the worth of chronology, which he referred to as the light of history….The Bible served as the guide for his chronology, and in the postbiblical period he relied heavily upon Carion's Chronicle." (p. 52).

With this, dear Judeans, do I close my case against the Prophet Andrew, who suffers from profusely from SID.

Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications

12/6/01

________________________________________________

SUBJECT: I will be praying for you

Rand, do you ever get tired of making a fool out of yourself?

First of all I was kidding when I said I have ADD but even if I did, that is not the same as minimal brain function.

Secondly, I work with mentally handicapped people myself (this with minimal brain function) and I can assure you that I have not met one yet whom I would consider your inferior.

On the contrary they radiate a genuine, innocent, child-like concern for one another and show a genuine interest in sharing and giving to one another.

So I would not crack back on handicapped people too hard. I trust them more than I trust you, and given the choice I would rather have one of the folks down at the center look after my own children before I would allow them to be poisoned by your bitterness and hatred. Most of the people I worked with have 1000 times more character than you, although their IQ may be a bit lower.

Secondly, as to your implied crack back on Georgia. I would not crack to hard on a culture where the men are working, like a man should. The women take care of their husbands and family. We do not poison our minds with porno and all the other things like many people, but stay faithful to pour wives. We are patriotic and believe in the community first (church, country, neighborhood) over our own selves.

I think the record shows that you battery-chuckers by the bay are corrupt and deviant. You cant even walk down the street in San Fran without seeing X rated movie houses, strip clubs and deviant homosexuals openly flaunting their lifestyles. So before you go cracking back on hard working Southerners you may to wake into consideration that you live in a cesspool.

Third, I am not a prophet, never claimed to be and no one here believes it either. I am just a regular person who loves scripture and the friends I have made here. See we all understand this, but for some reason you have a hard time grasping this concept.

I do not hate you. I am much calmer than I used to be. Ten years ago I would round house kick anyone who bothered me. Since I have known the Lord, I have learned to not worry about what other people think, but to focus on leasing the Lord.

Even as much as I would like to rebuke you, there is no point. Every time you post you make a bigger fool out of yourself so why rub salt on the wounds?

You are foolish Rand. No one reads you posts and no one cares. You are a babe here. You need to learn to get along, to get ahead. Maybe then someone, anyone might acknowledge you and maybe even listen to you. As it is you have zero credibility because you openly show hatred. Any man who claims to walk in the light, and shows such hatred, really does not walk in the light.

I will be praying for you.

Signed,

Andrew (12/6/01)

. HOME . Current Controversial Material . <- PREVIOUS