<- PREVIOUS . NEXT ->

            Devils take many forms. They may appear as serpents, dragons, and pigs. They may inhabit demoniacs and demigods. They may even come as wolves in sheeps clothing, professing Christianity, claiming Jesus is their Lord. However, as wise and wary disciples of Christ we are admonished to believe not every spirit. Try the spirits, John says. Put them to the test of Scripture, the only rule of faith for a Protestant.

            In November of 2000, this present writer discovered a thread on the Lion of Judah Message Board debating his series, Mark of the Beast. The posts which follow this introduction are verbatim posts from the debate. Of particular interest to the reader should be the posts by the Prophet Andrew and my responses to him. I leave it to you, the reader, to judge the spirit of the Prophet Andrew. You can be assured that I have done so, which is why I title this series, DIALOGUE WITH A DEVIL.

_______________________________________________________

First off I want to clarify that I did NOT post those other two new threads on the Catholic Church...HOWEVER, I did find this EXTREMELY INTERESTING...view...on the Mark of the Beast. This guy was posting on a Catholic Defense messageboard and I thought he had some really interesting things to say. Oh, he is NOT Catholic either. You'll see that from the very first line. I am not posting this with the intent of starting a debate on this either. I'm not quite sure I believe EVERYTHING this guy says, but I do agree with a lot of it. And Andrew, I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. There are several parts to this so I'll post it in increments.

Signed,

Nina (11/15/01)

[NOTE: Nina then posted all Mark of the Beast articles.]

_______________________________________________________

Hi Nina..we read this after dinner...looks interesting.

Signed,

Marlane, Administrator (11/15/01)           

_______________________________________________________

Nina,

great post, when you have finished it I will print it out for my husband who was raised in the Catholic religion.

Signed,

BarbieDori, Moderator (11/15/01

_______________________________________________________

Hi Marlane and Dori, I was half afraid to post this because it probably is controversial. But it really is interesting the further you get into it, because this guy who is writing this has actual quotes from Catholic documents, etc and it really is fascinating to read... hope everyone else thinks so, too.
Signed,
Nina (11/15/01)

_______________________________________________________

[NOTE: Nina has finished posting all the Mark of the Beast articles.]

That's All Folks!!!
I think it was after that last post that this Rand guy got kicked off the Catholic board.
I apologize for the length of the posts, but it IS interesting and gives you something to think about. I would also suggest checking out his website. He has some neat stuff on it.

www.iconbusters.com
Signed,
Nina (11/15/01)

_______________________________________________________

Hi Nina,
Thanks for your kind words and interest in our articles and website. This doctrines which we teach were once the predominate prophetic views held by true Protestants for centuries. Today the false teaching of Futurism has risen to popular acclaim. Few who hold to this error understand that its historical origins come from the Antichrist's ministers, the Jesuits! The Lord would have us expose the lies while exalting the truth.
Signed,
Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications

11/18/01

_______________________________________________________

SUBJECT: shooting fish from a barrel

I did not get to read all of Nina’s post so cannot address them at all but the first post by this Rand Windburn guy is a real stretch of the imagination.

I hope all of you see this for what it is.

He is saying that because the word “characterem” appears in the Latin translation of Revelation 13 and the same term appears in the The Seventh Session of the Council of Trent that he Catholic church “The Roman Catholic Church admits to giving the infamous Mark of the Beast”

This is quite a stretch. First off, lets define “characterem”. It means imprint or brand. In one context, scripture reads that Satan brands his own. In the other, it is saying that “… a certain spiritual and indelible Sign…” is branded on the believers’ heart when they are administered the “…three sacraments…”

This is some really twisted logic. I have no problem rebuking the Catholic Doctrines of Baptism and the Sacraments; but please, to say, “The Roman Catholic Church admits to giving the infamous Mark of the Beast” … this is pretty lame.

For an educated critic of even average intelligence, this is like shooting fish from a barrel.

Signed,

Andrew (11/19/01)

_______________________________________________________

So, what do you think the Mark of the beast is, Andrew? That's one thing I have been unable to get a clear answer on.
Thanks,
Nina (11/19/01)

_______________________________________________________

SUBJECT: This is the mark of the beast

Nina dear.
God’s elect are numbered and no one can add to or take away from their number. This number is represented as 144,000.
Those who are not marked by God are property of Satan. They are branded just as cattle are. This is the mark of the beast. The number is called 666.

Signed,

Andrew

_______________________________________________________

I must agree with Andrew. I checked out Winburns site and he draws big conclusions based on shakey logic. Also, is it really in the Spirit of Christ to mock someone because they are overweight? Mr. Winburn seems to think so.
Blessings,
Terry (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Branded like cattle?

Andrew,
Your hypothesis is preposterous.
You must have spent a whole 15 minutes meditating on the solution to the mystery before you so bravely answered Nina's challenge.

My advice: show wisdom by maintaining silence while actively researching any topic in which you have no comprehension. This may take years of full time study, as it has for me.

If, in your educated opinion, my in-depth articles contain error....by all means, prove it.

Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications (11/20/01)
_______________________________________________________


SUBJECT: Rand

My conclusion is 100 percent factual and you cannot refute it. The fact that you make no effort to correct me but resort to personal attacks makes that obvious.
All that is obvious to me is that you know nothing of the Latin language and that you draw weak connections.

Nina, the antichrist is none other than Satan.

Signed,

Andrew (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

Andrew,
I am sure you can make a broader case for what you are saying than your one sentence. I am interested in why you believe the AC is satan and not a seperate person.

Signed,

Warrior728, Administrator (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

I am SO staying out of this one...

Signed,

Laura, Moderator (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

That makes two of us, Laura. Think I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch this one. Ought to be extremely interesting.

Signed,

Nina (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

That makes Three of us...although I may post occasionally.

Signed,

Marlane (11/20/01)

_______________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Petards & Hyperbole

Dear Message Board Participants:

I eagerly await the effuse hyperbole Andrew promises as much as you!

Thus far he has limited his Gnostic prophetical gleamings to one sentence.

Perhaps on Monday he will grace us with three! (smile)

Watching a religious man foist himself on his own petard is sad business, but one which the Lord said must come to pass:

"The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself."

See ya all, Monday! <grin>

Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications

11/21/01

________________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Gracious?

LOL Rand...I guarantee you that if time and will permit, Andrew is capable of much more than three sentences! Even though Andrew and I do not agree on many things, he is very intelligent and I for one think he is a great debator. Don't tell him I said that though. I have to keep that a secret so he doesn't get fiesty with me and get the upper-hand.

You see, I know that even though he is a better debator then I - I am still right.

Signed,

Laura (11/ 21/01)

________________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Rand

I am not sure what he is talking about Laura.

As you know I am just a dumb old country boy myself and don't know much about big words and stuff that Rand uses.

I have enough problems of my own though and I don't need to go around correcting him. Maybe one day when I am perfect I can come back and fix him too.

Signed,

Andrew (11/25/01)

________________________________________________________

SUBJECT: Please Read

Nina. David, Marlane, Laura and Rand,

Please read all of this before you comment.

One thing that all these modern prophesy teachers have in common is their desire to identify the Antichrist. The pretribulational theologians look everywhere for the revealing of the Antichrist, except in the Bible.

My advice to those who claim to be reformed (Nina, David and Rand) is to be reformed in practice, not merely label. We believe in sola scriptura, which means that only scripture is sufficient for rule of faith.

The biblical principle for true and proper interpretation is found in 1 Corinthians 2:13:

(1 Cor 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We need to read the words of the Bible as totally inspired by God void of human additions. Man’s wisdom and conjecture (such as that practiced by the modern theologians) is found in philosophy and other sciences. Christians cannot expect the wisdom of the world to add anything to them. We are children of the of the book, PERIOD. All else is opposed to the purity of Scripture. The teachings of the Holy Spirit are found in the Bible; not in newspapers, not in theology books, not in prophecy magazines or books, not in politics, not in messianic publications or the Jerusalem Post, but only in the Bible. The only inspired material contained in these publications are quoted Bible passages and that is it!

Finally, we MUST MUST MUST compare spiritual things with spiritual. In other words, it is the comparison of Scripture with Scripture as the only way to extract truth from Scripture. Man’s publications are not spiritual and cannot be used to interpret or compare with Scripture. Whenever we go outside the Bible to try to gain understanding of the Bible we will always hit a dead end. This is precisely why theologians have an "Antichrist of the Month club." The Bible tells us who the Antichrist is and to look further is to violate Revelation 22:18-19 by taking away from Scripture. The role of the Bible teacher is to search out truth in the Bible (not newspapers or other periodicals) and deliver that truth to those whom God has placed in his charge.

That is my soap box speech but leave THAT TYPE of interpretation to the unreformed. Because to take the name reformed, you have to subscribe to an ethos of excellence. You must see interpretation this way. If you do not, please do not go around saying you are reformed. This is the way Luther believed, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon and other great reformed biblical teachers all followed.

Now, Let us now use only the Bible to gain the identity of the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 & 7-9

(2 Th 2:3-4) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

(2 Th 2:7-9) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Within the context of these verses , we will have a clear understanding of who the Antichrist is. Guys like Van Impe et al use this passage is used as a “proof text” that there will be a physical Antichrist on this earth. They try to say that it is a man” and since Satan is not a “man” then this must be a physical man.

But hold the phone! Use the principle of scripture interpreting itself. This passage (2 Thess. 2:3) is linked to is Isaiah 14:12-17:

(Isa 14:12, 16-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Did you notice the vital link in these verse? In verse 16, Lucifer, a.k.a., Satan is called "the man." Now we know that Satan is an angel not a physical human being. Here God refers to Satan as “the man” which caused havoc on the earth.

Let us transfer the title "The Man" to 2 Thess. 2:3 and see if we are on the right track. There we read about the "Man of Sin". Satan is the “man” in Isa 14:12, 16-17 and he is the “man of sin” in 2 Thess. 2:3. The “man of sin” is not a human being. No human being can wage the war Satan has been waging against Christ from the time of creation, right in the Garden of Eden.

The Antichrist is therefore Satan and by this understanding of who he is, it fulfills the requirement for the end time prophecy in verse 3, "and that man of sin be revealed,..." The man of sin has been revealed and it is Satan.

In verse 4, we see Satan sitting in the temple of God. The temple in view here is not the physical temple but the temple which is the body of believers.

Yeah, I know what the pre mill people say. They say “Well here now you are not using scripture to interpret itself. Is that true? Absolutely not. For homework look up 1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21; Rev. 3:12, 11:19 and then tell me what the Temple is. Is it a building in Jerusalem? No. God is warning us that Satan is sitting in the churches and bringing false gospels. The people will think they are worshipping God when in essence they will be worshipping the false gospels of Satan.

This deception is most prevalent not only in the Catholic churches, but in the modern churches where they still believe God is bringing new revelation through tongues, signs, and wonders.

Verses 8 and 9 speak of the destruction of Satan at the second coming of Christ. Verse 8 tells us that when God, as sovereign ruler, lifts his restraints, then the wicked one will be revealed. As we have plainly seen, Satan is that wicked one. His destruction is spoken of in Revelation. When we look at the way the passage should read, we see that the Lord Jesus will come in brightness and his coming is against the workings of Satan, which will spell destruction for him. This is in perfect harmony with Rev. 19:19-20 and 20:7-11.

Look at some Scripture verses which help us in our search for the identity of Antichrist.

(1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

There is no way that a single human being can be Antichrist since this verse tells us that anyone who denies the Father and the Son is Antichrist. There is no human being that can live for 2000 years in this present earth. There have been many Antichrists throughout history but there is only one behind those who can motivate a person to deny the Father and The Son, and that is Satan.

(1 John 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Here John states that the Antichrist was already in the world at the time of the writing of the epistles which was 2000 years ago. Since only spirit can survive without reference to time, it is only possible that Satan is the Antichrist, since he was in the world at that time in addition to today. The Antichrist is definitely a spirit essence and not corporeal.

(2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Here John gives another example of who an Antichrist is. It is one who denies the incarnation of Jesus Christ. John gives us good understanding of the Antichrist. The Bible’s definitions seem to center on the fact that antichrists deny essential doctrine and biblical truth.

Daniel 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This verse is most revealing about the identity of the Antichrist. This verse speaks of wearing out the saints. Are there any Christians you know of who are battling some sin on the front lines and it seems we are losing on all fronts. Most Christians I know are almost always tired. Here are some battles we face today: abortion, education, pornography, false teachings of the Bible, false gospels going into the churches, and there are many others. Satan, who is behind this escalation of sin, is literally wearing out the saints. This sin will continue to multiply since he was loosed as Rev. 20:7 tells us:

(Rev 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Let the Bible be your guide, not these theology and prophecy books which do nothing more than increase confusion and build their foundations on sand ad nauseum.

I love you all. Even you Rand.

Signed,

Andrew (11/25/01)

. HOME .

<- PREVIOUS . NEXT ->